Volumetric Capture

Announcer:

Today on Building the Open Metaverse.

Christina Heller:

It makes sense to me that VR and the Metaverse are so closely associated because I think when we're in virtual reality, and especially when you think of the promise of virtual reality, that is the ultimate manifestation of the dream of the Metaverse. Because we are fully present inside of a virtual reality. We have an avatar, we have a body and we're fully in a completely different universe and everything about it is synthetic and virtual.

Announcer:

Welcome to Building the Open Metaverse where technology experts discuss how the community is building the open Metaverse together, hosted by Patrick Cozzi from Cesium and Marc Petit from Epic Games.

Marc Petit:

Hello everybody. And welcome to our show, Building the Open Metaverse, the podcast where technologists share their insight on how the community is building the Metaverse together. Patrick, how are you?

Patrick Cozzi:

Doing great, Marc. We're looking forward to the conversation today.

Marc Petit:

Yeah. This one is for you because you always talk... You want to know when we are finally going to have holograms. So, we decided to invite somebody who has an answer on that. So we're super happy to have with us, Christina Heller. Christina, hello and welcome.

Christina Heller:

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

Marc Petit:

Yeah, no, it's fun. And you are the CEO of Metastage, and we'll let you describe what Metastage is. It's all about volumetric capture and digital production. And it looks like something from the future. And so, we're going to be curious to hear your point of view and how practical and what's the steps to make this a reality. So, welcome to the show. And so, maybe the best way to start is to... Our usual question is describe your journey to the Metaverse and a little bit of your background. We want to hear it in your own terms.

Christina Heller:

Yeah, sure. So, I've been working in production almost my whole life, definitely different forms of media. Started off in radio and college and moved into television production and then independent filmmaking and I was excited about both the technical and creative aspects of these pursuits. And at one point I started becoming very interested in the intersection of media and technology. And I was ruminating on where that intersection lived when as fate would have it, I felt drawn to go to the Sundance Film Festival for some reason. I had never gone. It wasn't like something that I did regularly, but it was turning 30 and I wanted to do something special. And I wanted to go to the Sundance Film Festival, and this was Sundance 2014.

Christina Heller:

And there, I got to try the DK1 of the Oculus headset, and it was just the answer to the questions that I had been asking about where that intersection of media and tech might be found, and that kicked off what has now been a seven year pursuit of creating content for XR, the Metaverse, whatever you want to call it.

Marc Petit:

So what's your definition of the Metaverse? It's always a trick question, I know, but we have to ask it once in a while.

Christina Heller:I think the Metaverse for me represents our virtual realities. And I don't mean that in the term of the VR headset that you put on your face, but more the life and worlds that we inhabit in the virtual space. So, I think right now it represents a lot of different mediums in which we engage virtually with one another. But we are starting to see a lot of those begin to intersect. And I do think that inevitably we are looking at a world where there's a whole virtual universe to explore and a digital reality that exists over top of our physical reality that we can just tap into at any given moment. And certainly in the Metaverse we have superpowers, which is very exciting, the ability to teleport and maybe even time travel. So, it certainly frees us from a lot of the constraints of the physical world, although there's still some ways to go to beat the graphics and fidelity of the good old, physical reality.

Marc Petit:

That's a great perspective. Thank you.

Patrick Cozzi:

Yeah. I like your definition. I like both the virtual worlds and also overlaying the digital information on our real world. Christina I'd also love to hear more about the origin story and your founder's journey with Metastage.

Christina Heller:

Yeah. So, Metastage was really a group of people coming together to decide they wanted to take a chance on what at the time was a crazy idea. The team at Magnopus had done some work with the Microsoft holographic capture technology for the Blade Runner VR experience that they had developed and built, and Microsoft approached them and said, "Would you be interested in launching the first not even US based studio, the first studio in the Western hemisphere to commercially offer this holographic technology to production companies, and agencies, and really anyone that's interested?" And Magnopus thought that seemed like a great idea, but felt it would be more impactful as an independent company, and they didn't want anyone to think that they were competitive with Metastage.

Christina Heller:

They wanted to be its own thing, and found some investors who were excited about pioneering technology, new ideas, and this potential partnership to get it off the ground. And then there was this question of, okay, so we know we want to do it. And we know we're going to work with the Microsoft technology, which is the best volumetric tech in the market. Who's going to actually do it though? Who's going to actually... And then that was when I got contacted. I got a message out of blue, the kind you always hope would happen. And at this point I had moved on from my previous company, which was called VR Playhouse, and which I had also led and which was also involved with production services for XR tech.

Christina Heller:

And yeah, I was approached with the opportunity to launch and lead Metastage. And it was just one of those things you don't say no to. So, I'm in an interesting situation where I didn't have to go around and sell the dream. The dream was already dreamt, but then myself, along with my founding team, we really did start the company from complete scratch. We didn't even have a website or anything when we started. And that was at the beginning of 2018.

Patrick Cozzi:

That's cool. Yeah. That's a unique founder story there and congrats in all your success. So, as you know I'm a total beginner in volumetric capture, and I've just learned that Marc is also a beginner. So, I was wondering if you could just educate us what is it, how does it work? What's the state of it?

Christina Heller:

Sure. So, volumetric capture technology allows creators and producers to bring real performances, authentic, real human performances into virtual mediums in full three dimensions. So holographic capture, it all often gets confused with motion capture. It's not that we're scanning a person so that you can then rig and animate that puppet later, instead it's someone going out on the stage, whether that's an athlete, a musician, a public figure, or even Patrick, Marc, you guys going out on the stage, and us using an array of cameras. In our case, we use 106 machine vision cameras to capture that performance from every angle, and then render it into a small streamable file that can be enjoyed in many mediums, but certainly all of the ones that require three dimensions.

Christina Heller:

And when you engage with these captures, it can be like the person is there right in front of you. So, it's incredibly impactful for anything where only the real thing will do. Where you don't want assimilated avatar talking to you, or you don't want assimilated video game type character. And then certainly it also has a lot of very interesting value for preservation, archival and legacy purposes too.

Marc Petit:

So, what's the underlying technology? It looks like you're capturing a lot of data. So, where do you think we are in terms of maturity of the technology precision quality and...?

Christina Heller:

Well, I can speak for the Microsoft tech and I can tell you that we are commercially ready, commercially viable system that gets you extremely high fidelity captures at very small file sizes that you can integrate into common devices. So, for the sake of this conversation we're going to talk about capturing Patrick. So, Patrick comes on the stage and the goal is that he's going to give a manifesto about the Metaverse, which he can then present to his investors or our stakeholders on a Microsoft HoloLens, but also not everybody has a HoloLens or Magic Leap. So they need to be able to engage with it on an iPad or a phone. What's beautiful about the Microsoft tech and the tech we use it Metastage is that, that Patrick basically goes on the stage, we approve his wardrobe and hair ahead of time, make sure that it's all pretty volumetrically friendly and that it tests well, and that the results are what he expects.

Christina Heller:

And then at that point, we say, action. And he goes into the manifesto. While he's speaking, we're capturing him using these 106 cameras from every angle, and we're capturing, as you said, a massive amount of data, 30 gigabytes of raw data per second, in some cases. But for Patrick, it's easy. He's just out there, he's talking, he's being himself and he nails it on the first take. Great, Patrick's done, off he goes. And we typically say two weeks for turnaround on our processing because we are juggling multiple projects simultaneously. But if Patrick was our only priority, we could turn it around in a few days.

Christina Heller:

And he would have this beautiful 3D capture of that speech that he could integrate into a variety of different points of distribution. He can bring it into Unreal. He can bring it into Unity, he can integrate it onto an AR phone, an AR app for the phone. He can do it in WebAR through 8th Wall. He can bring it into any of the VR headsets. He can put it on a looking glass, he can bring it into Unity and do virtual production with it and build a big commercial with sweeping camera moves. So, that was an extremely long answer to say that, I believe that our system is commercially viable and we are working with clients week in, week out who have interesting ideas of how we might use it. And really that's the big question is, what is the most compelling use cases and creative ideas that this tech can serve?

Marc Petit:

So, to ask you a question though, would Patrick be as fuzzy in capture that he is in real life?

Christina Heller:

Would he be what?

Marc Petit:

As fuzzy from a detailed perspective and-

Christina Heller:

Yes. I will say that beards do represent our little challenging, because like... So our system, it's a mesh based 3D model. And so, it's always looking to put together a geometric reconstruction of whatever it's capturing. And so, beards do present a little bit of a challenge. There might be a tiny artifacting around his beard, but I guarantee you'd be impressed. Not at a point where it distracts from the quality and impact of the capture.

Marc Petit:

That was great. I saw you'd have picked me because I would not have this problem.

Christina Heller:

He's above you on the screen right now. So, I'm looking more directly at him than you.

Marc Petit:

So, as a fascinated technology, I think this is also those kind of technologies you said, is data. So, it will progress. I'm sure both the software and the processing software and the hardware will make it even more valuable. So what do you see these potentially? Do you think we can get to a point of a real time processing for that, as you... What's your take on how far we are from being able to use this in a live environment?

Christina Heller:

Live volumetric is a very exciting prospect because that is like teleportation, right? If Patrick is standing in LA, but he's being beamed to Philadelphia, that is very cool. And the tech actually does exist. There are live volumetric systems right now. The issue is largely about quality right now for that. I think that, especially with the kind of clients that we're serving, which are pretty high end clients, like A list actors, sports figures, et cetera, they're very particular about their image and they're going to want it to look really good. And I think the volumetric tech is still a little tough on the quality side, but there are a lot of very smart people who are working on that day in day out right now, because I think that if you look at some of the things that Unity's doing and other... There's a lot of ambitions around being able to bring live performances and that whole industry into the Metaverse and volumetric technology is certainly one of the key tools to do that.

Patrick Cozzi:

So, I was telling Marc, I've rewatched every Star Wars movie since Thanksgiving. So yeah. So, I'm super into the holograms nowadays. So, I'm curious, could you just give us some numbers, like what's the resolution on the capture side and then also maybe on the state of the display technology?

Christina Heller:

Sure. So, we're capturing using 12 megapixels sensors and when we're outputting, we're not out outputting it, we're almost out outputting it through 4K. And it depends on if you want that. If you're doing a WebAR activation for instance, and it's says QR code, you're not going to want it at 4K, because it'll be too big to load in the system. So, we are exporting based on what our clients are looking for in terms of distribution. So, at our highest quality output we're at almost 4K and we export usually up to maybe 60,000 polygons for a capture like that, beyond that it actually doesn't improve the quality. It actually begins to just look a little bit... It doesn't... Anyways, beyond 60,000, you're not getting added quality. But if you were doing it for something that required the smallest file size we can possibly produce, then we would be bringing it down to maybe 10,000 polygons at 1.5k resolution for that. Because as you can imagine, streaming volumetric holograms through a web browser is a miracle of technology that you don't want to give yourself any added complications when doing.

Marc Petit:

In your mind, so the teacher was born, right? As you mentioned, the original problem from Ben Grossmann on Blade Runner. Yeah. So, what are the use cases and more generally how do you see that relationship between the VR and the Metaverse? They seem to be closely associated, but I'm curious to have your point of view on that and how volumetric capture could become more of a mainstream form of media, maybe outside of the VR world?

Christina Heller:

It makes sense to me that VR and the Metaverse are so closely associated because I think when we're in virtual reality, and especially when you think of the promise of virtual reality, that is the ultimate manifestation of the dream of the Metaverse, because we are fully present inside of a virtual. We have an avatar, we have a body and yeah, we're completely different universe and everything about it is synthetic and virtual. But that being said right now, if you look at, what, like the video gaming industry that is also a Metaverse and arguably a more relevant, modern day Metaverse because people do actually spend hours upon hours and hour of their life in that world, and feel very immersed and connected to it.

Christina Heller:

And the question like, does it really matter that they can look around and they're not actually in that environment when they're still just inches away from a screen playing for hours on end. But I do think, certainly virtual reality is the science fiction dream of the future Metaverse. And as we all know, there are a lot of big companies working at making that dream a more compelling experience. And as far as where I think volumetric capture plays into that... Like I said, our assets do work on a quest or if I focus, or certainly on the more high end headsets. And the place where I'm seeing the most interesting applications for it at the moment are in the training sector.

Christina Heller:

So, there's plenty of evidence to speak to VR training, being more effective than passive video based training. There's more concentration when people are in headsets, the interactive component means that their actions change the outcome of the narrative. And therefore there is more retention, especially if the training experience is highly realistic. So, I've been out there talking with people who are making VR training experiences and saying, the quality of your virtual trainers and the humans in your experience should match the level of realism of the rest of the experience, and an advocate for bringing volumetric trainers or highly trained actors into these experiences so that you can teach people about behavior, human emotion, and just have more credibility.

Christina Heller:

So, I'm very excited about that in the short term, because I do think if we look at VR today, VR training is a perfect example of how VR is being used today. It's not that I'm going in and spending 12 hours just surfing, world hopping, although maybe some people do. I'm going in for a purpose, I'm going in because I'm going to train for a half an hour for my job, or I'm going to go in because there's a specific meetup or a specific event that I think seems really interesting. And so, yeah, for me, VR training is a very practical immediate application for our tech.

Marc Petit:

Okay. Makes a lot of sense. So in your hometown, Los Angeles there seems to be a virtual two production stage, every other block right now. So, is there an intersection between volumetric capture? How does it complement the virtual production technology?

Christina Heller:

You can use volumetric captures in a virtual production workflow. For anyone who might not be familiar, although if you're listening to this podcast, my guess is you are. Virtual production is where we're creating framed content, but we're using tool tools to do that. And everyone loves to cite it because they did such an incredible job, like the Mandalorian did their entire series with a massive LED wall projecting all of the backgrounds and all of the environments for the shots. So, often those environments are built in Unreal or maybe Unity and those environments, which you're building in a 3D game engine... First of all, could be poured into a VR headset and immediately... And I feel like that's an underutilized benefit of the virtual production workflow.

Christina Heller:

It's like, I would love to be able to explore some of the sets of Mandalorian or some of these folks in VR as if I was standing there myself. So that's one method of virtual production is like, I'm standing on an LED stage and I'm doing a performance, and there's these environments that are being broadcast behind me. That being said, then if you wanted to input more characters in that scene that weren't physically there, when you shot the script that day, you can take these volumetric characters and place them into the game engine. And now you have background characters or other folks populating those environments and you can also angle them and twist them because they're also 3D assets themselves to make the scene however you'd like.

Christina Heller:

And we have a really great case study from 2021 where we worked with Samsung and Charli XCX on a Buds 2 commercial, where the entire Charli XCX performance in that commercial, which was aired on TikTok and social platforms was a volumetric capture of Charli that we did at Metastage. I'm happy to go into more detail about that, but it was exciting for us because we certainly knew we could use these for background characters, but it was like the first time we had at least a Metastage seen it being used for a hero asset.

Marc Petit:

Yeah. That looks like the more speed and resolution we get, the more value in digital production workforce. Actually, there's a lot of VR scouting. And since it's a small world we could have loved those VR scouting tools with Magnopus. And so, they all come from the same roots, I think so. So, to switch here a little bit, because this podcast is, we're trying to get professionals like you to talk about open standards and so, is volumetric capture base on existing open standards or does it require specific data sets? And how do we get to a point where this data can be used across multiple platforms?

Christina Heller:

Yeah, there's a group actually called the volumetric formatting association that was launched at the beginning of last year and they managed to get an alliance of different volumetric technologies to come together, to at least have the conversation about volumetric standards. That being said, as it is now, I think the closest thing we have to something like open standards is the fact that we have this format that happens to work in a bunch of different commonly used platforms. Like I said, you can use it in Unity, Unreal. We have a WebGL output. We recently worked with Snap to do the first ever volumetric Snap lens for their platform. So, the team at the Microsoft Mixed Reality Capture Studios, which is our little division inside, the bigger Microsoft empire is, really wants our tech to be as device agnostic, platform agnostic as possible, but it is still in the Microsoft proprietary format and it's hard...

Christina Heller:

Yeah. I'm not sure. I think that if you look at some of the techniques to do volumetric video, they're not even all uniform. We do, like I said, a mesh based avatar, but some people use voxels. It's interesting to imagine, how could you get a universal standard when you're not even exporting the final asset using the same mechanisms. But I guess that's what the VFA is all about. And I certainly am a fan and I wish them the best of luck. And I think the more we can get, make volumetric and easy workflow for our partners and clients, the more projects we'll see being made and distributed, which is good for us and good for everybody.

Marc Petit:

Okay. So, we have to go back Mr. Steve Sullivan, right?

Christina Heller:

Yeah. He's the general manager.

Marc Petit:

Who runs the effort at Microsoft. So, we'll do just that.

Patrick Cozzi:

But Mark, Christina did touch on an interesting theme that we've seen come up a few times in the podcast, which is the pace of open standards. Christina, you're saying that, hey, some folks will use polygons or triangles or other folks will use voxels. So, we're maybe early in our innovation for volumetric formats. And then there's always this question of, well, how fast can you standardize? And can you possibly standardize too quickly? So, I don't know if Christina, if you have a take on that, given the current landscape?

Christina Heller:

It's interesting. I come at this from a content and project background, as opposed to a hardcore technology background. I've had to over the course of... Like I said, since I had that light bulb moment in 2014, I've had to really up my game when it comes to understanding technology, VFX workflows, tools, and as evidenced by this podcast, I can hang, but that's actually really not my particular area of interest and focus. So, I like things that are decentralized and I want to create more freedom for creators and innovators, but it's like I don't stay up at night thinking about universal standards and things like that.

Christina Heller:

I like to think about what we could do once some of these barriers are broken down. For me, one of the more frustrating things I think about a lot is just the limits of our display technology right now. We're capturing a lot of very interesting people at Metastage. Like you said, athletes, musicians, public figures. But I still feel like the method for engaging with these holograms, it leaves me wanting more only because I know what we're capturing. And then seeing it through an iPad placed in my living room is cool, but it's not what I know it could be, and will be hopefully.

Christina Heller:

And so, we put all these things away in the archive cloud with a prayer in my heart that someday we will be able to view them like you do in these Star Wars movies, in their full glory, and presence. So, those are the kinds of things I think about. It's just like, man, what we capture is so cool, but then often I'm left a little bit, just not as excited when I see how it is now versus what it could be in the future. And that's a longwinded way to not answer your question.

Marc Petit:

Actually, you brought up an interesting topic, which is, and we are geeks, Patrick and I. And this podcast is about geeks, but we're also curious to have somebody like you. You're running one of the most advanced... It's a technology that’s very cutting edge, very advanced. And you come as a woman from a production background in this world of geeks and advanced technology. Were there any specific challenges there?

Christina Heller:

Yeah, 100%.

Marc Petit:

I'm sure there was a lot of stories there.

Christina Heller:

For sure. Actually, I feel like for the most part, I don't have a lot of stories about being wildly underestimated or being treated... And of course, I've got a few. I remember back when I would get mistaken for a booth babe and things like that at my... But those things actually have not been the main challenges I've run into. And overall the XR industry has been so amazing to me and has supported me and my career from the jump. But I will say what, it was such a weird thing to learn was just, all of the... There's so many like weird terms to describe various aspects of VFX and technical workflows that can be so intimidating and so convoluted.

Christina Heller:

And I guess a lot of industries have this. It's like they almost created their own secret language to confuse and create a barrier so that other people won't understand what they're talking about and will be intimidated by the conversation enough that they won't even attempt to get involved. I feel like when I first... Especially with Metastage, when I was first learning about the software and the technology to create holographic captures, there was a crash course in a lot of those key terms. And I'm still not even as fluent with them as say, are like our head of production, Skylar Sweetman. But I think that's one of the more frustrating things is, the terminology and the language we use and the fact that it feels deliberately confusing and it keeps people on the outside that have no idea what we're talking about.

Marc Petit:

Yeah. That's another angle of trying to be open, to make sure that can be shared. So, you have a point. There is something about the XR industry I've noticed that where like AW with a whole feminine lineup of speakers last time around with Joanna Popper from HP, yourselves, all those things. So, it looks like that industry specifically seems to be very aware from a gender perspective. So, it's good to see.

Christina Heller:

Yeah. And it might just be because it really had its latest incarnation in 2014. 2014 is when Facebook bought Oculus. And that was what really kicked off the first of the most recent hype cycles. And I think that because we were building it from scratch at that point and we had gone through a lot with other industries, there was more of an emphasis on creating an open diverse and inclusive atmosphere, and then certainly leaders like Joanna Popper and Raphaella and others fight very hard to keep it that way. And yeah, it's like I said, I love the XR community, men, women, non-binary, everyone in it.

Marc Petit:

Yeah. And absolutely. But in a nice struggle because we do have a white made problem on this podcast. When you look at the lineup of people we get naturally too, so we try to go beyond, but it's not easy.

Christina Heller:

Well, we appreciate that you're aware of it, acknowledging it and trying to bring on a diverse set of guests and-

Marc Petit:

People remind us all the time.

Christina Heller:

What'd you say?

Marc Petit:

People remind us all the time.

Christina Heller:

Yeah.

Marc Petit:

All right, Patrick.

Patrick Cozzi:

Yeah. I just Wanted to ask one more question before we just go into a wrap up. Christina, if you fast forward five years or 10 years, tell us about the state of volumetric capture and volumetric rendering. Will we be able to rig these captures like you can do with motion capture today, will holographic rendering be as affordable as my phone? Tell me, what do you think?

Christina Heller:

Well, definitely. Already at Metastage, we'll do a TPOs for almost all of our shoots, which you can add a scale into and rig. And that allows like, let's say you're doing a training simulation, if you want to have a rigged asset in the background. For us it takes no time at all to do a quick TPOs. So, we just do it already. When I look at the future five, 10 years down the road, I think certainly 3D, spatial technologies will be much more prevalent than they are today, which means that volumetric capture will be a common tool, the same way that using cinematography is for flat mediums. Volumetric video will be used in spatial tech to holoport and broadcast in every vertical that you can imagine.

Christina Heller:

And I do think that we will certainly have consumer based volumetric in our homes. If you want to capture a family moment in three dimensions, but I still think there'll also be a place for high end production for a volumetric content as well, where like we have now at Metastage, there's a sound stage and a professional production process to get super high quality performances in captures. So volumetric video, it's the cinematographer's tool, for the Metaverse it's the documentary filmmakers tool in the Metaverse, and it will be a really wonderful way to capture and preserve humans and moments that we can enjoy in this next medium. So yeah, it's a privilege to be there on the front row, watching it all come to life.

Marc Petit:

Yeah. No, I do believe it's at the infancy. We see so much in capture, with the MetaHuman is all based on capture with the megascan and photometry. So it feels to me that we're the very beginning of all those things, if they're going to converse, I think one day we're going to get passes of threshold in compute. I think AI, automating processing, we can teach machine to process and guess a few things that... So, I think that we'll see some code... Right now it looks like science fiction and it looks like a little bit impractical, but I'm definitely convinced that, give us a few years and it'll be very impactful because like sampling to music. Synthesizer were good, but really things started to be interesting with a good, simple sounds. And I think for the Metaverse is going to be the same, the more capture, the more recent pieces that we all can get in, and definitely full performance video capture is going to be critical. So, yeah. Firm believer, just don't know when. Don't ask me when.

Christina Heller:

Yeah. Well, you are both most welcome to come visit our studio anytime. And we've got some exciting announcements this year on the Horizon. So stay tuned. We're expanding a little bit this year. So like I said, it's just very cool to be in the front row and helping bring this important tool to people who are excited to use it.

Marc Petit:

Absolutely. So, our last two questions, which is our ritual. So, is there anything that you would've wanted to discuss that we did not ask you about?

Christina Heller:

I'm not feeling that a burning yearning for another question, but as soon as I hang up, I'm sure I'll come up with something.

Marc Petit:

You're exactly like me. I'm super smart, but it takes time. And is there any organizational or person that you want to give a shout out to?

Christina Heller:

For sure. I'll give a shout out to Magnopus. I know I gave them a shout out earlier, but I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you today, if it weren't for Ben Grossmann and the team at Magnopus. And I also want to give a shout out to Lap van Luu, their CTO. He is a rare blend of technical genius and down to earth, awesome human. And I just think Lap is the best. So, I'm giving them both a shout out today, but man, I could give out, give so many people shout outs, because like I said, I just feel like this industry is full of so many incredibly inspiring and kind people.

Marc Petit:

Well, Christina, thank you so much for being with us today. It feels like a little bit of a glimpse into the future and we're thankful for you to the time to be with us today.

Christina Heller:

Thanks for having me.

Patrick Cozzi:

We really appreciate it. I think 98% of what I know about volumetric, I just learned.

Christina Heller:

Nice. Job well done.

Marc Petit:

Absolutely. And thank you everybody who are listening, we got momentum is great, the feedback is great. Keep the feedback coming, the things we like to hear, the things we don't like to hear, it doesn't matter, and asking what you think, and that's not what you want to hear about. Keep on reviewing, sharing, and reading and let us know everything. So, thank you everybody. Thank you again, Christina. It was a pleasure to have you today.